Pax (02:25)
Awesome. Matt, take two. Super excited to have you here. Thank you for joining us today. Absolutely. I'm glad to be here, man. It's good to see you. So let's start off. I think you have one of the most interesting backgrounds of most people I know in marketing. So, ⁓ like let's take it through, like tell us to how you got to this point. Cool. Yeah. Grew up in Southern California, was a classically trained artist, played sports in high school and I thought I was going to be a Disney artist.

That was my, my vision. I was a good illustrator, not a great one, but a good one. ⁓ went to school for illustration thinking that was going to be what I did. And as I developed, kept getting better and better. I ended up getting a job at Disney, ⁓ during high school as part of the Disney academy, which is like the Disney college program, but for high school, great program, wildly eyeopening. ⁓ I came from a pretty, ⁓ poor background, just parents trying, but just not like a big opportunity for education. I kind of had to take that in the bull by my horns. And so.

When I got hired at Disney, I was like, no way. And so I started out as a performer. And that was kind of a funny story of how that happened. it was kind of this odd moment where I got invited to an audition. have no dance background at all. Some cute friends were like, hey, do you want to come to an audition? And I'm like, sure. And so I got there and I was like, whoa. You guys are like actual dancers. I don't even know what choreography means. And then I got cast because I was 6'2 and I could move.

And so it was the best college job of all time because I got to perform at Disneyland and you only work half a day because you do a show and it's down for a half an hour. You do a show. So for homework, I was just charging through my homework between shows. and then I got an opportunity to apply for the art department at the resort and I got hired and then I thought I'd died and gone to heaven. I was like, I haven't graduated college yet. Like box checked and it was so neat to be a Disney artist, to work on Disney things.

I was seriously enamored and the Disney artists I worked for were so much further ahead and like really seasoned artisans of every type of art and just I was blown away and super humbled at how far I still had to go thinking that I had some skill and like I'm such a rookie I have so much to learn we had the opportunity to work on the Pirates of the Caribbean like the movie premiere and all the things we were aging swords for like like a year

⁓ It was the longest red carpet in the history of Hollywood. And so when you do things for Disney, they do nothing small. And I learned a lot about experiences and showmanship and a lot of that. so towards my seventh year working there, I realized that ⁓ this company is so great. It's hard to move up, especially if you're just waiting. I had a degree, was skilled, I was doing good, but my manager had been in his role for 15 years and hadn't promoted in 15 years and he was good.

And the hard thing was is that he was doing good, but so was everybody else. And so I know it's a challenge they face, but I was like, I think I'm to go try something else. And so I had an opportunity to work in Hollywood for a minute. And ⁓ as soon as that started developing, there was several strikes and it was really difficult to succeed. We'd sold a film, meaning we got production rights and that was a kind of a funny story. But ⁓ I learned a lot about selling an idea and most people don't know this, but a script is the business plan for a film.

And so Disney taught me these great experiences working with a couple filmmakers and then selling a film when you think about it They look at it as like is this a date night movie? Is this a horror is this like where does it fit in our product cycle? And so we found one that was a great date night movie and it was a small budget but hey we sold the film in Hollywood that was 2007 and It was downhill from there things just kept falling apart and when the strike happened it wasn't that like the industry ended imagine like

A retailer has to close for two weeks. What do I do with my inventory? What do I do with my products? I have to reorganize what goes where. So new products are going to be on hold for a minute. And so by the time it got reshuffled, we had kind of run out of resources and it just didn't work. And so that was a four year adventure there. So Disney was showmanship experiences brand. Hollywood was storytelling. was like literally, how do I keep your interest, take you through a story and you enjoy popcorn sitting at this theater.

The theaters are super involved in what gets made. So these were really valuable experiences. And at that time I was really discouraged ⁓ of how much effort and energy I put into something that I was passionate about and it didn't work. And I wasn't ready to go back to Disney. They had invited me to come back for a couple of roles and meeting like ⁓ production roles, not in their performance, but it just didn't make the money I was looking for. so a friend of mine, ⁓ we were praying a lot actually of like, what should we do?

you know, and a friend of mine was like, Hey, ⁓ do you want to come work with me? You know, it was like 18 minutes after I finished my prayer to so I was kind of like, really fast, you know, and ⁓ he was a creative director at a local marketing company called one on one marketing. This is in California. This is here. So sorry, I had moved to Utah at this by this point. And so my entire family's here. And every year they're like, What are you coming? And I'm like, I'm not, you know, so we moved to Utah on 09. And then ⁓

My partner at he became my partner. He invited me to come work with him And so he was a brilliant creative and I said my man like I don't even know what SEO is like I don't know how I can help you and he's like well I'm afraid to talk to people and I was like well, I'm You need help selling and he's like bingo and I'm like I got it and so I was on a fast track of conversion optimization You know web dev creative. So his name is Ryan Sharp and he is lights out

He's so good, such a brilliant mind. It was easy to sell because Ryan was so amazing. so ⁓ I fell in love with entrepreneurs at that point. And so I still didn't really know what marketing was, but I loved listening to everybody's like business, you know, and I solved this problem, I solved this problem. And I was like, wow, this is cool. You know, to listen to like, we need you to help us tell the story and there, whether it was accounting or a legal service or a product company, just listening to their stories. I was like, man, this is so fun. Like look at all these people.

putting their dreams out here, pulling money out of their back pocket to start something. So startups and entrepreneurship just caught my attention in such a huge way because I loved the format of storytelling and I thought it had to be delivered with film, but brands and products tell a different story of solving our problem and as marketers, us solving theirs. And I just was so enamored with entrepreneurship of like solving a problem with a business, you know, and that opened my eyes and I was like, I can take my skill of

you know, creativity and storytelling and turn it into an operation to help them make money. And so I fell in love with it super fast and I was like, I found my thing and I was pumped at that point. Yeah. So, yeah, so cool. Yeah. Um, so you, uh, uh, that skill of taking like the, the creative and storytelling moving into marketing, I feel like I've, I mean, I've worked with you on a number of projects. I've been able to see firsthand your skill at

saying like, let's think outside the box here. How can we, you know, give them a really cool experience, tell a really great story? Um, I think storytelling in marketing is one of those things that's widely accepted as yes, everyone, know, you say you need to get better at storytelling and everyone's going to nod their head, you know, but in my experience, I would guess that maybe 5 % or less of people in the industry actually apply it or pursue that.

What do you feel like in your experience is holding people back from being better storytellers when it comes to like marketing? That's a great question. And I think what was weird for me is that I had this great story training and just assumed everybody else knew it too. And, and so, ⁓ it is a skill and there is training for it. And, ⁓ I think that we confuse like calls to action, you know, positioning statements as storytelling and it's not. And so when you can like,

unpack the whole journey, like from, you know, the problem to the solution. There's such a story to tell for any business. To me, the best book on story, and we talked about this before, but is story by Robert McKee. And so that's, that's the book on storytelling. There's lots of great books on the storytelling, but, ⁓ in, in school and illustration, they taught us very, ⁓

in depth about the statement that a picture is worth a thousand words. Well, as an illustrator, I'm creating a picture from scratch. Like I will dictate what's going to happen in this image. I'm going to tell you a story by design. Same with the photographer. A photographer capture what is I'm going to create what is. And so we had to learn a lot about what are you saying? You know, if you put a figure in, you know, alone with a lot of negative space, you create the feeling of being alone.

If you put the person around a lot of food, that means love. If you ⁓ have tension, you know, that creates angst. there's, you know, ⁓ that are pointing to someone, it creates a tension, you know? And so there's illustration as complicated as any industry. There's so much technical ability around it. So we read the book, Story, by Robert McKee. He breaks down the movie, Casablanca, and Casablanca is a great movie. I wouldn't call it one of my top 10 though, right?

There's a lot of great movies out there, but ⁓ Robert breaks down Casablanca as the best movie ever made because it's the best job at telling a story. It doesn't mean it's the best story. It does the best job of telling a story of moving a narrative with characters, with supporting characters set, you know, ⁓ shot selection, timing. And he talks a lot about the supporting cast. And so when you have the two love interests that are trying to recapture their feelings,

you have, you know, outside characters complimenting, you know, the man and complimenting the woman or warning them. And, and their dialogue is less important at that point as like, you know, Rick, you're the best, you know, he's, he's the most honorable, he has integrity. The character doesn't say that about himself, but there's like third party validation happening. And so as a viewer, you're watching this story unfold and it takes you through the whole hero's journey. And when you can get to that end that you got the crescendo and the change and the resolve,

You're always like, and you're so excited to have participated in a story. And most people don't know this about Disneyland. Disneyland is the same concept. So if you were to describe Disneyland, how would you describe it? fun, nostalgic. Yep. And you're not wrong. People would say theme park or a carnival that's permanent, right? Like, cause in many ways it is. And when Walt pitched Disney, people were like, you want to do what?

Like put some corporate offices up and let's make some money on that and build some equity. And he said, no, I want a completely different experience. And so as a child, Walt would watch animations or films and have the desire to be there. What if I could be inside of a movie, walking around with the characters in the film? That's Disneyland. Frontierland, you're walking around a Western with the characters from the film. And Tomorrowland, you're walking around a sci-fi.

with the characters from a sci-fi and you know, Adventureland, you're walking around the jungles of Africa with characters. And so you got to be in any movie you want and you just walk to the next movie. And so now that you see Disneyland in that way, it's a totally different experience. And they have kept that like origin story and the Genesis that made Disneyland in every Disney park. And so if you think about you're walking around a movie, it's a totally different experience. And they design everything from that lens of how can I be in the story?

And what makes them a great storytelling company is they want you to be a participant in the story. And that's what Robert talks about. And so if you come back to a marketing perspective, it's a show from websites to ads, to merchandising, to the product itself, you know, and how you review it and, know, all the supporting collateral. want to participate in this journey. So that is no small thing. And to architect a journey is quite a lot.

And I don't know many CEOs that are on board with that level of patience, but the brands that are smashing it, tell a story. And ⁓ you can feel it. You can see it. it, it works. This is not just like, this would be fun. It's also a good financial strategy, right? Is that as a consumer, I'm wrapped up in your story, not the one or two products that you have to offer. And you then have the permission.

to be marketed to because you've captured me. I wanna participate in your story, you know? So it's a real skill and the best of the best do it. So in my experience from what I've seen is there's like, you're familiar with the uncanny valley, right? I'm not, So like in 3D animation, there's like when you animate a human, as you get closer and closer to human-like,

⁓ You reach this point where people are okay with what they're looking at and then once it gets too close But it's not there. Yeah, it reaches this uncounted uncanny valley where it's like disturbing, right? Yeah Before you finally reach like lifelike, right? That was ⁓ the Christmas movie with the train All those movies are a little bit. Yeah and I feel like I've seen a similar like if we graft it out where there is kind of like the

what I might say is like mediocre, but like I'm putting food on the table kind of marketing. You know, I'm optimizing my CTAs or, know, I'm getting the site up or whatever, which is a thing, right? Right. And then I've seen, and then, you know, the success stories on the other end of that Valley of like, look at, ⁓ I mean, a billion of brands like, ⁓ what death water, a liquid death, liquid death, liquid death, killing it. ⁓

In that storytelling perspective, literally canned water. Yeah, exactly. Four dollars a can. Yeah. Take my money. I think there there's a lot of brands that are in between those that are either like. They're going halfway on it or they're telling a story that's like cute, but doesn't resonate or whatever that ends up falling flat and they just never get told stories, right?

How?

I think as a marketer, one of the things over, like we need to overcome is that risk of I'm taking a swing here. The only way you hit a home run is if you swing, but when you swing, you have a chance to strike out. So like what, as you've approached your career and you've taken these swings, what has been your mindset to either increase the odds of hitting a Homer or, ⁓ overcoming just like that fear of taking that risk and like, you know, I don't know if this is going to work out or not, but

going to move forward? Yeah, great question. I think when you make quick decisions, you make the riskiest decisions. When you really do your homework, you practice and you prepare, you're going to be ready to tell that story. So as the CMO at Little Giant, I had a great team, a great CEO, a great, you know, history of the company. I was definitely coming in standing on the giant on the shoulders of giants, right? So I was so excited to continue that storytelling and

Most of the storytelling was about the product. It's a great product. And so we were trying to break into a new market and trying to be seen for the professional commercial category. And so as we thought about it, we spent a lot of time with them and listened and what are they actually talking about, thinking about? What are they not talking about? What are they worried about? What are they excited about? And so

spending time with this cohort, which is very liquid death cohort. What brands do they purchase? What did they buy before and after us? And I noticed there was this amongst the majority of that industry, there was an edge about everyone. They had to be seen as being super tough, know, super strong and rigid, skilled, lots of lone wolves, lots of independent contractors, but, you know, and lots of tattoos and you know, there was a,

several brands I paid attention to that I'm like, okay, like this cohort, it's important for them to be seen as being dangerous. And we were selling a safety product with a safety message. And I was like, they'll never admit that they like that. They want to do the dangerous thing and then make sure that you got their background. And so that was a big thought, like, okay. And so I started testing, like, you know, we would go and talk to influencers in the market and even the retailers were very price focused.

because they're salespeople, but the buyer is different. Like how do you capture their heart? And so I was getting that information. And then I went to a trade show with electricians and we had all of our products and, there was a husband wife that was really like struggling in our booth. They were kind of getting at each other and I was trying to distance myself. Like I don't want to be involved in your fight, please. And, ⁓ he had gotten really hurt on a ladder fall and she was really emotional. And I,

they did get in a small fight right in front of me. And she was like, you almost didn't come home and you almost didn't come home at all. And she's weeping and I'm sitting there like, whoa, you what's going on? And so he said, babe, I have to have a ladder, you know? And I said, let me show you something. And so I honored him and honored her and she was like, okay, you can use only this ladder, you know? And I'm like, he's going to be all right, you know?

that story had an influence. And so it's not just, you know, for our product, it's, you know, the buyer, the influencer, there's all these things. And so it came down to the buyer's like core need to prove themselves. And so we came out with a couple ideas, but essentially it was like honoring their danger, you know? And so all of our marketing felt that way where we were respected. Like we also found that of the 25 most dangerous jobs in the world,

our customers were 11 of the 25. High voltage, steel workers, like dangerous situations. And they wanted to be respected. So the whole customer journey was like respecting danger, respecting danger, respecting danger. And some of them even get hazard pay because what they do is deadly. And you watch them on Instagram. And so ⁓ that became the core of our storytelling to take them through, you're talented, you're amazing.

you're dangerous and they felt seen. And that became a really big, ⁓ market penetration opportunity. And our go-to-market plan was to build messaging like that. And it worked and influencers began requesting us like, how do I come interact with your brand? Like, and it was gritty, you know, and our competitors had been so well established. They weren't worried about us until we started taking market share. And it's a real tough industry to get into because

It's so established. It's a connected network that, you know, everybody already knows each other. I there's a generational component to serious generational component. So we got into that. We got into the psyche of it. And so, yeah, it was so fun to like have that revelation. And so when we pitched that to our sales team, they were just, they had goosebumps, you know, and they said, you nailed it because they felt like they had weapons they could go to war with. And, and they did, they went and got customers and it's a lot of fun. And so

⁓ we woke up a giant though. We definitely woke up a giant and there's some great companies in that, that industry and people aren't going to let you take market share for long, especially threatening their jobs and different things. That's a tricky part of marketing. Yeah. That, reminds me of one of my, probably not one of the, my favorite Superbowl commercial, which is, ⁓ like a, so God made a farmer. yeah, dude, we're both there. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. It's basically this audience who feels underappreciated.

is working hard to support the entire nation. Yeah. It's like, Hey, we see you. We know how hard your job is. And this product is built to serve you. Yeah. Yeah. And when Harvey said that message forever ago, he didn't know it'd be in a Superbowl ad. He was telling the truth and that resonated. Have you been to the Tillamook cheese factory? No, I haven't. So it is so much on that note. And it is about like local farmers and honoring them. And it's neat because it's a fun factory tour. get cheese and ice cream and ice cream is really good.

gets made right there, you ⁓ But yeah, there's so many huge murals and like just big wall art of farmers and it just make them look amazing. And I'm grateful for that because we've got farmers in our family, but it hit that same note where you felt like they were seen. think Tillamook's going to continue to be successful that way. Yeah, I love that. So this this move that you did with Little Giant was also in middle of COVID.

Yeah. And I thought it was what you built out on premise that studio. yeah. Yeah. You can talk about that. Yeah. That was a massive pivot. Like you didn't let COVID get in the way. You actually like took advantage of it. felt like. Yeah. What helped is our CEO and founder. ⁓ They had been doing TV advertising for a long time. And so the question to normally for us to demonstrate a ladder was is a huge box. You have to go in person, open it up. Ladders are big, right? On by design.

We couldn't do that. So the question became, how do we continue to demonstrate when we can't go visit people? And so our CEO challenged us with that. And so all of us began putting our heads together. We're like, let's build a huge studio here, multi-camera. And so we had lots of connections with Rick Salisbury and others. And so we hired him to help us build the studio. And it just a great vision. so marketing team, know, executives and sales all got together and

We wanted to be able to blow their minds. We wanted to be able to give them an experience that was unlike anything they currently have. Cause most video conferences, most video training is a talking head. We did nine, you know, PTZ cameras, know, in room photography. And ⁓ it went so well that zoom reached out to us and said, what are you doing? Yeah. And they had thousand questions for us and like, tell us how you're doing this. And so we did two studios, one that was very much on brand kind of a rustic fun.

And then we did one that was more of a commercial environment where we could have like a situation room where we could demonstrate all the uses of our ladders. Most people don't know this, but Little Giant has over 1200 ladders for all the different, like all these little differences, they make a difference, right? And like, how are you getting to that and being secured? And so lots of different ways to solve problems for lots of categories, but it was all around how do we keep people safe and then climb? It's a safety company that makes ladders, not a ladder company that has safety and so.

we could literally show them the situation. So we had great demonstrators that would show the ladders, but we would bring people into our zoom environment and we could walk around the room and cameras coming down the ladder, up the ladder, you know, and then everywhere in the room, you could really could get a different visual. And so, um, we began training our retailers as well. And so our retailers do product knowledge trainings to their associates. And so we won awards there. And so it was just neat that our CEO had this vision and like, how do we pull this off?

And it was absolute blast and it did. We kept selling and so much so that we captured the attention of our retailers that like we are not giving up. We're going to solve this problem and so much fun, so much fun. And it was neat too to see our team think about this problem we're trying to solve. And then we did. We were originally going to hire a group to do all of the AV. We did it all ourselves. And so just honored by our team and how hard they worked. And it took everybody. It took everybody thinking about it.

Just a great vision. so I was really grateful to that, that, challenge came because if challenges prevent or present so many opportunities to like break the mold because you have to, cause the mold's not providing food for your family. And, uh, yeah, Ryan is just very much that way. Ryan Moss, great CEO. And so it was a lot of fun to be a part of that. Yeah. I love that. mean, you have at the end of the day, the same number of pixels as your competitor and to say, or we're not going to do the talking head thing.

We're going to rethink how we use those pixels. and instead of getting trapped into, mean, it's a trap. Really. lot of people will just do the talking head and not even question it. It's like, it's, doesn't even enter their field of view to say, this could be different. It could be better. Yeah. ⁓ I, as you've been through these experiences with multiple brands, and if there's people listening, like aspiring to like, okay, I think I could rethink this or I'm in a new thing that I want to do. And I'm going to take some big swings.

I find that context is really important. So there may be somebody listening who are thinking, who's thinking like, okay, yeah, I'm going to spend one or two weeks listening and then like come up with some big ideas. Yeah. Is that act like how long should people be spending? Cause in my experience, it's like, it's longer than you think, like, yeah, listening and then building and then actually pushing something live. Like what is a good, like give people some context in your experience of, what it takes for a success there.

Yeah, definitely test and iterate. Don't just, you know, Tiger Woods talks about when he's coming up to a tournament, he gets a thousand touches with the club to a ball, a thousand. Steph Curry, you know that story, like how many shots does he shoot before a game? So in a game, it looks like he's making everything, but you didn't see the thousands of misses before that were very intentional. And so I remember somebody ⁓ telling me that he worked for an agency and it said fail fast above the door.

So I agree with that while you're paying attention, like take smaller swings, take smaller, slower swings, see some responses while you're paying attention. I was asked to speak last year at one of our customer's conferences and like talk about like, you know, ⁓ branding and you know, guy brand guides and things like that. I was like, easy. Wait a minute. Like who is this for? And so I thought like I'd be pretty, ⁓ proud.

or prideful to go in and act like I know everything. I don't know everything. And so I called several of their marketing leaders and I was like, talk to me. What are you doing? What frustrates you? Why? And I got some incredible soundbites and I was like, what did you say? Say that one more time. they're like, that sounds pretty good. And they were proud of themselves for that soundbite. And I was like, whoa. And that soundbite just kicked open a whole campaign where I was solving it over there, thinking about me, thinking that please buy our stuff.

And over here, this is a real feeling that they have. It's a real problem that they're trying to solve. And so when that happened and it came, I dove into that. So when we went and presented, everyone was like, have you been spying on me? And they felt, feeling understood is the sexiest feeling in the universe. Not being attractive, not being funny, feeling understood. And selfish, mean, the thing that's hard about that, it's really uncomfortable topic is like,

That's how affairs happen is at work. People feel understood. That's how, you know, you fall in love with someone. That's how you fall in with a brand. That's how you, you know, get convinced to join a club of faith, a religion is you feel understood. And so that is such a hard thing to do. And that's why the research is so important, but you can't just like do a bunch of research and try once. Yeah. You know, our daughter just, ⁓ I'm gonna try to keep it together. I'm so proud of her. She's found it today. She got callbacks. She was auditioning for this role.

and she's really nervous. She's 12, you know, and she's like, I'll just I'll just be I'll just do this other thing that I'm guaranteed to be in it. I'm like, No kiddo, like you're a frisbee. You know what I mean? Like, you know, and she was like, What does that mean? I'm like, I don't know. And she's, she rehearsed and rehearsed and rehearsed and rehearsed. She's like, How's this sound? I'm like, kiddo, like, make me believe this is real. And so we read back to her and she's like, You sound terrible. I'm like, I know, but at least you said, you know, I you know, it shouldn't sound like

And she just kept rehearsing all night. so when she called, when she texted us that she got callbacks, like she probably said those lines, I don't know, like four days straight to the point that all the kids in the house were like, well, I'm like, easy. Also, that's kind of funny, know, but she got it. And so because she practiced and practiced and practiced when she went, it was just automatic. So I think there's this balance of, of practicing and not like AB testing, like do a campaign, a small one.

while you're paying attention, because if you don't do the campaign and just do the research, you didn't go out for it. There's something to be said about embarrassing yourself. Yeah. You know, there's something to be said about doing it wrong because there's more value in the, ⁓ sound bites than there is and not doing it at all. And because I had done like six or seven iterations and I got that sound, but I was like, Whoa, same with the wife that watched her husband nearly die. I mean, they're in the ER and she lost her partner and

And so listening to that real emotion, it affected me, because these are customers who live and die by your product, like listen. And so this other company, it wasn't like a life or death situation, but it was still a very large emotion. And so that feeling of being understood should be the heart of any story. And the stories that we love the most are the ones that we can relate to the most. Like one of my favorite movies is Moana, like I'm saying that out here.

There's such a genealogy story there. And that means a lot to me because of our family history. And we talked about that a little bit, but like, that's why I like to, listen to them. want to soundtrack more than I'll ever admit. So when you feel understood, that's when you know that you've hit it. Yeah. Tell us about Axomo and the like really quick one step step back is I feel like there's a lot of serendipity.

In these stories that he's sharing where it's like, I was at a booth and someone randomly had this conversation. And then you take advantage of that serendipity. Yeah. You don't, you can't run across it unless you're out there. That's right. Moving and listening. Right. Yep. But the expectation of, Hey, you talk to 10 people and you're going to get the story. It may not be 10 people. It may need to talk to 50 or whatever. Like, but the point is it's unknowable. Yeah. And I think that's where it drives a lot of.

marketers, especially those that are more like engineer brain, it drives them crazy. Right. That it's unknowable and you're just out there fishing. Yeah. Something may happen. No, that's a, that's a great question. And that the sit when you've, can architect serendipity, like that, that is the path and marketing to, me, I think everyone would say this about their industry. Marketing is the hardest industry and I love what was taught to me. And the question was, ⁓ what's the, the

highest form of art in the world? What's the highest form of art? I don't know. Advertising. And if you were to say that to an artist, be like, know, it's creating an asset, an image that gets people to act. Get your wallet out of your back pocket because I made this piece of this image, this video, a sound bite that you're going to act. When you look at Mona Lisa, you're like,

Is she smiling? Is she not? what do do? Yeah. I look at a man, a Monet, even modern art. You're like, wow. But you didn't like change, you know, and I watch an ad and I'm like, Whoa, look what that can do, you know, or walk into a Bucky's and lose your life savings. You know I mean? Like, so, ⁓ as a marketer, it is your job to be, you know, in the psychology, you know, to be in the

Even the physics of the situation to be in the mathematics of it, know, there's there's such a global understanding of human behavior that you have to put yourself in their shoes and when we For me when I think about that, I want to hear it from them. So literally dude in three weeks I'm going to spend time with our target customer. We had four acts almost so we're a swag management platform Nobody's dying if they don't get their swag. This is

in many ways an unnecessary thing, but it is an unnecessary thing. And so we built a persona and we gave this ICP a name based on current customers. And so we have a current customer and several that use our product exactly as we dreamed because for years we saw these problems. We kind of have six things that our platform solves and this customer uses every one of them like, like a dream. And so we call her queen Vicky. And so we've had conversations, I've flown out and had lunch with her, but

we're actually hosting an event on her behalf in Chicago in a few weeks. And if you don't know, this is a real person. This is a real person persona has been named after. When you build, you think about, yeah, I see her photo. We've had lunch. She kayaks. She just had a baby. We sent her a big Taylor Swift gift package for her baby and on the arrows tour and all that. Right. And so like, ⁓ she, she lost her mind with that gift. You know, we did a custom Taylor Swift baby package and so fun, but ⁓

And in listening to the problems she's trying to solve, why she's trying to solve them, what she hopes people see her as, how we can make her look like she is talented, successful, prepared. She executes. That is why we exist is essentially internally. say we're here for Vicky. Like we're here for Queen Vicky, know, all hell to Queen and that we do though, like everything we build is to get more and more Vicky's and it's the best model. It's the best experience. We are best suited to fit her. She's.

we solve all of her problems. so ⁓ every time I get the chance to see what she's doing, I'm taking extreme notes of why this, why that. So while we're out there, I've blocked out a chunk of time to like talk to me. And I have all these questions prepared. And what I love is she's excited to share it because she's like, it just keeps getting better for me. And I'm like, I know, but tell me more, you know? And so that's exciting. And our customer advisory board, same thing, like they're, they're very similar in their education, experience, talent, passions.

And so we have, we've got this cohort of people that we've built our platform for and we've got lots of competitors, but I don't care. Like I'm going to go crush it for her. And I think that she'll feel like, man, that was really special. Yeah. I love that. It's such a great story. ⁓ Matt, thank you so much for, for joining today. I there's so many great takeaways in here. if you had to give like maybe one more piece of advice for somebody who has for whatever reason, not taken the swings that they need to be taking marketing.

what would you recommend that they go do today? I mean, take the swing, but, ⁓ I love what we talked about earlier. Have confidence in that swing. You're talented. The opportunities have come to you. Take the swing. You're going to be so excited when you see the result. And especially if you take, if you miss like swing again, because opportunities are going to keep coming to you. And when you, when you make contact that way and that, that opportunity does what you hoped it to do.

you will change. And I remember, you know, all the failures. And then when it happened, it was like, I did it. And I recently, and I'll tell a quick story about golf. And, ⁓ I had a round of 18 where I played super terrible. The first nine, I just laughed it off. Like, I'm not good, but then the back nine, I did everything right. And I was doing the math and I was like, I just like, I made par in every hole and I got two birdies. What? You know, and

And I was like, that will never happen again. Why am I saying that to myself? I just did it. And when you see yourself do it, know that you can do it again and again. And so be willing to fail and be excited about that failure. Cause when you do do it, you're going to be so excited about your capability and you're really going to learn like why you're here. And I think that like, you know, belief, not belief. Like you're here for a reason. Find out why. And when you use your talent and serve others with your talent, you're going to feel

different and I'm grateful that I've had those opportunities because it did, it changed me. It definitely changed me. And I hope that others get to experience that because of the great risk and the reward that follows is exciting. Yeah. Awesome. Thank you so much. Thanks for having me, dude. Appreciate it. Okay.